Only a few days into his new job as Vanderbilt’s defensive coordinator, Brent Pry opens the door and gets in the passenger seat. This isn’t his first rodeo, but life is new for him now. He’s in the SEC. This is the biggest job of his career. This is the biggest paycheck of his life so far.
This is a lot.
Next to Pry manning the wheel is James Franklin, a soon-to-be rising star in the head coaching ranks who — for all his credentials — is finding his footing in a new kind of world as well. He’s a head coach in the SEC. It’s the sort of thing you say to yourself in the mirror just to realize that it’s true. Done correctly, it could change the rest of his life. Long gone are the days of next to no pay, gone are the days of wondering if it’s all going to work out. Sure a coach never rests – something Franklin’s late nights and early mornings can attest to – but that doesn’t mean you can’t see how far you’ve come, and who has come with you.
The duo is preparing to travel to a recruiting function, but before the engine turns over and the evening begins Franklin looks over at Pry and says three simple but profound words.
“We made it.”
For these two – Pry an Altoona native, and Franklin who calls both sides of the state home for different reasons – it has been a lifetime in the making. It’s the ups and downs of small schools as players and as coaches, it’s the uncertainty of the future but putting your all into it all the same. Making it to Vanderbilt is not a final destination, but even one of the most difficult jobs in America is still a coveted landing spot for every coach dreaming of getting their shot at the game’s highest levels. For Franklin and Pry, that allure was no different.
“If I didn’t play at East Stroudsburg, you wouldn’t say that,” Franklin said earlier this summer when asked about his resume to get to Penn State, one which includes multiple short-term stops. “You play at East Stroudsburg and you have to go from there to Kutztown and James Madison, to Washington State to Idaho State. Like I wasn’t [always] a full time coach, and I played small school ball. So my journey was gonna have to be different, I didn’t have the same type of connections and network that other people had.”
Ten years later Pry is still by Franklin’s side in a world where continuity and loyalty have become a complicated dynamic. Coaches come and go; staffs change seemingly on a daily basis. Nothing staying the same is the only thing that stays the same. It’s not for a lack of commitment, but rising up the ladder in a competitive profession is not for the passive, chances are taken and career paths are forged through self-belief and a little bit of luck.
For seven current Penn State staff members that path has been one forged alongside Franklin for over a decade. In a world carved and molded by change, these seven have spent an almost unheard amount of time riding out the storms with the same head coach.
And the question is, why? Not that they should leave, but in a world that is constantly in a state of flux, the lack of change is too unique not to investigate.
StateCollege.com spoke to all seven staffers about how they came to cross paths with Franklin and why after so many years later they’ve decided to still call Franklin’s program home. Those staffers are: Andy Frank (director of player personnel), Dwight Galt (assistant athletic director, performance enhancement), Barry Gant Jr. (assistant director of performance enhancement), Michael Hazel (senior director of football operations), Chuck Losey (associate director of performance enhancement), Brent Pry (defensive coordinator) and Kevin Threlkel (chief of staff).
Responses and questions have been edited for clarity and at times brevity.
In December 2010, Vanderbilt hired James Franklin to become its 27th head coach in program history. It would have been a tall order for even the most experienced program builders in the sport, let alone someone unpacking boxes as a head coach for the first time. But before Franklin — who spent the previous three seasons as offensive coordinator and assistant head coach at Maryland — could face this challenge, he had to assemble a staff, and that meant making calls. For those on the other end, it meant making decisions.
PRY: The first thing I remember is that he called me at like midnight. I was asleep in bed and the phone woke my wife and I up. She’s like, “Who is it?” “It’s James Franklin.” She’s like, alright, and he offers the job on the spot and says he wants me to be there the next day. I’m like, “Coach, I got to be able to say goodbye to my guys and wrap some things up [at Georgia Southern, where he was defensive coordinator for the 2010 season].” He said, “Did I tell you what I’m paying you?” And I said, “No.” And he told me, I said, “I’ll be there tomorrow.” He said, “You can pay somebody to pack your dang office up.”
For a guy like me, you spend your whole career at a 1AA and Group of Five schools and then all of a sudden you get an opportunity to go to the SEC. And honestly it was just kind of a dream come true. Being at an SEC school and being at Vanderbilt, for a lot of folks that’s maybe a step backwards if you’re at all these different jobs and you take a job at Vanderbilt. James did a great job of putting the staff together with guys that were hungry and appreciative to be at Vanderbilt, you know. I just felt fortunate as shit. So you just attack it. You’re thrilled you attack it. There was nowhere to go but up. I mean it was in a pretty bad place when he took the job and his leadership — I have made this statement before — I swear to goodness, he just willed shit to happen. You know, his drive and determination is just so impressive. And that’s what that job took.
GALT: We had a real good relationship — and when he came back [to Maryland] the second time after working with the Packers and at Kansas State, he was really kind of in a different place and had a more advanced skill set. We just shared so many the same philosophies and approaches. So when he went to go to Vanderbilt, I really believe very strongly in what his thoughts were and how to run our program and I respected him so much as a coach and as a person. To me it was not even a decision. It was tough for my wife and my family a little bit to uproot but that was an adjustment, but I think once everybody kind of got to see what the situation was with with James everybody has been really supportive and understood that was the best decision.
GANT: I was at LSU and I had just arrived at the Cotton Bowl when I got the call. And it was through Mike Hazel. So Mike Hazel reached out to someone at LSU and I got the recommendation. So that started the process and I can remember at the time I was supposed to already be on my way to Ole Miss, but that fell through. Luckily, it fell through and I joined in with these guys shortly thereafter. About two weeks after that phone call I was on campus and it was history in the making.
LOSEY: I remember that time flying by was like the fastest three, four years of my life. I remember one day I was at Tennessee State as director of performance and I connected the dots to get to James and Dwight through Charles Huff [who would later join Franklin’s staff at PSU and is now Marshall’s head coach]. Charles and I had worked together previously at Tennessee State and I just remember Charles giving me a text one day and he said “Hey, I put your resume on [Galt’s] desk and you’ll hopefully hear something. And sure enough the next day I think I got a phone call from [Galt] calling me up and he said “Hey, you got time to talk later today?” I met with him, I met with James and within a 24 hour period I was on the train and we were going.
So, I remember it being fast. I remember working extremely hard like we always do. I remember being very focused — James had a vision right away. As soon as I stepped foot back at Vanderbilt [where Losey played defensive end in college]… You know, I remember him explaining what his vision was to us and I was like “Wow, this guy is exactly what Vanderbilt needs and I absolutely want to be a part of this.” So I knew from within the first five minutes of meeting James that he would get Vanderbilt the way they needed to be. I knew what kind of guy he was and I aligned up with his vision. It was some of the most fulfilling years I’ve ever had as a coach.
HAZEL: What’s interesting is when James got to Vanderbilt, he didn’t have to keep myself or Andy [Frank]. And I remember vividly working for him for a few days, may have been a week, and eventually he called me in his office. And you know college football transitions, usually the coordinators go, the strength coach goes, and somebody — an operational or administrative role that works directly with the head coach — usually isn’t retained. It’s maybe like at nine o’clock on a Wednesday night after he’d been hired for like four or five days. I was walking in fully prepared to be looking for another job, and he said, “Hey, I’ve enjoyed working with you. I like what you’re about. And I’d like to hire you on my staff.” And what I thought was really cool about what he said was, “I’m going to hire you, on my staff.” He didn’t say “I’m going to retain you.” “I’m hiring you. I’m selecting you to be on this staff.”
FRANK: I got the initial job at Vanderbilt before Coach Franklin got there so I was on the staff that basically got let go. I was there I guess six years before Coach got there. I went to Vanderbilt for grad school and was a graduate assistant with football team for three seasons. Then from there, I made my way off the field, eventually to a recruiting role and I was in the recruiting role when Coach Franklin got there. So when he took over that, I guess, probably it was December or January, we had been recruiting and actually while there wasn’t a head coach and we clicked. The person that I knew that had a connection with [Franklin] was Charles Huff. I knew Charles when Charles was at Tennessee State. We had met a number of years earlier and kind of became friends. So I reached out to ask about coach and kind of, you know, what he’s like, and what was important to him all those kind of things. You’re trying to do your best job for Vanderbilt and help them keep recruiting, but you’re also trying to impress the new guy, so you can have a job because essentially you’re at an interview every day.
THRELKEL: So I’ve been with Coach since, I believe it was 2006 at Kansas State. Coach Franklin was the offensive coordinator so I interviewed with him and was able to work with the offense there. Back then there were three student coaches: one for offense, one for defense and one for recruiting. So basically Coach Franklin was the offensive coordinator, [former Vanderbilt and PSU assistant coach] Ricky Rahne was the GA, and I was a student coach. Basically every free minute I had that I wasn’t in class I was at the football office helping break down film or helping a practice with Ricky and Coach Franklin, so we developed a great relationship. I stayed in touch with Coach Franklin and they were creating a football operations intern position at Maryland at that time and so he said “Hey are you interested in this?” and I said “Yeah, that’d be great.” So I went to Maryland for the 2009- 2010 season. I was an intern there at the beginning and then got bumped up to full time there for the 2010 season. Coach Franklin got the head job at Vanderbilt so I was there for three years with him and now, this is our eighth season at Penn State, so I think this is, this is year 15 together.
The 2011 season started off the Franklin era at Vanderbilt with a bang as the Commodores began 3-0 to open the year. From there it was three years of unprecedented success for a program that had seen very little in the SEC. A 6-7 season in 2011 would make the Commodores bowl eligible and springboard the program to back-to-back nine-win seasons in 2012 and 2013. By the conclusion of Franklin’s final season in Nashville, the job he and his staff had done would be considered one of the more successful building stories in recent memory, turning Vanderbilt into a viable middle tier program in the nation’s most challenging conference.
Pry: I think the first big boy that we played and won, and I can’t remember if it was Ole Miss or Kentucky [It was Ole Miss, Vanderbilt winning 30-7], and you just kind of felt yourself climbing out of the cellar a little bit. You’re kind of like, OK, we don’t have to be the bottom rung in this thing. Then you start thinking to yourself in the same breath as Ole Miss and Mississippi State and Kentucky and at that time Auburn and then all of a sudden you’re knocking on the door at Tennessee and beating those guys twice and beat Georgia and you beat Florida and you’re just kind of in the thing. It’s almost surreal. You know, it just happened fast. Just a staff, and a combination of players that just didn’t care. You know, there wasn’t a preconception [of what Vanderbilt was]. It was “We can do this.” James was very fiery and emotional and I think it was the absolute perfect hire at that time for Vanderbilt to kind of spark it. You know, the league was down a little bit in some spots and there’s some games that get away – shit, win them and the narrative would be even stronger, if a couple of those had gone to our side.
Galt: It really kind of started when we hit them right between the eyes that first seven months, from a culture, accountability and preparation standpoint. Those guys were phenomenal. I mean they were great kids. It’s like we have here at Penn State and they really adapted and bought in 100% to pulling the rope in the same direction. But I think we started that first season off with three straight wins. I think right then the confidence level, and the belief just really took another leap and we ended up 6-7 our first year with a pretty tough SEC schedule, but foundation and the emotional and cultural foundation have been laid. And obviously the next two years we really took off even more.
Gant: It was an immediate response because those guys hadn’t won. So everything we told them, they kind of didn’t have anything to fall back on to say that “That’s not it,” or, “Well we used to do it a different way and had success.” So whatever we told them they really bought into. That helped with our early success, so we went basically from three wins over however many years to being bowl eligible immediately. So I think they believed in us. They believed in the strength program they definitely believed in Coach Franklin and the energy that he brought to the building and we just went forward from there.
Of course like all things in athletics, success creates interest and as Penn State football found itself without a head coach following the departure of Bill O’Brien to the NFL, the need to generate excitement, hope and high-level results following the fallout of NCAA sanctions had never been higher. While Penn State was not the only school with hopes of landing Franklin’s services, few brands carry the same weight as the Nittany Lions and nearly 110,000 screaming fans at Beaver Stadium. So then-athletic director Dave Joyner made the call. For Franklin the decision wasn’t easy, “I almost didn’t take this job,” Franklin told StateCollege.com earlier this summer, but for the staff around him the decision to follow him to State College was.
GALT: To be honest we never even talked about going to Penn State. I mean honestly, you know the process by which he got the job and he’s working through a lot of things. During the, I don’t know, it was a seven day process or something like that and there was a little bit of radio silence just to keep everything confidential so as not to sabotage the process. But it was, I don’t even think we ever even talked. It was [just] assumed. It’s kind of a package deal and I’m sure there was other people in our program, it was the same situation. So we were a group together, and you know it was kind of assumed to be really honest, in my situation at least.
GANT: I would say within a few hours he reached out to all the coaches and we kind of got together at his house and he invited me up and I didn’t think twice of it. I immediately jumped on board. I didn’t know anything about Penn State at the time so I did all my research in those moments leading up to coming here, but in those first moments there was no hesitation.
PRY: Yeah, he sure did [struggle with the decision]. He was emotionally a mess that morning saying goodbye to the kids. There was a lot happening on our bowl trip that week. The night before our game some things came out about him and Texas and we had to meet with the team and it was just kind of a roller coaster. Anytime when that’s going on there’s certain guys that are wondering if they’re going or not. “Am I my going if it’s school A? Am I going to school B?” and what that looks like, and I was one of the fortunate guys, you know, knew that I’d be with James and was in discussions about what he was thinking. So obviously, there were other overtures for him. And this was ultimately what he informed me and everyone decided it was the best. We had a lot of PA guys on the staff at the time, and it just made so much sense. It was a bigger challenge, but at the same time, it really seemed like the right fit for us.
HAZEL: I think a lot of people, especially at Vanderbilt, thought it was a foregone conclusion that James was leaving Vanderbilt to go to Penn State, and I think if you know James Franklin — James is very introspective and very thoughtful and so the notion that he was just leaving Vanderbilt to come to Penn State is probably a little bit of a misnomer. That decision wasn’t as easy for him as maybe some folks think, especially folks there in Nashville. I think it was something that he struggled with and wrestled with and and, you know, ultimately he obviously made the decision to come to Penn State, but it wasn’t a super easy decision. … He had had meetings with all of the individuals that ended up coming up to Penn State at his house. We went over one by one to his house and met with him. And in talking about the opportunity at Penn State, he asked if we wanted to join along this journey with him. And I said absolutely. So he goes “Alright, well, go pack your office up.” Keep in mind, I’ve been in that office for like 10 years so you don’t pack an office up overnight.
LOSEY: I’m a realist when it comes to this profession. You know, obviously I love Vanderbilt. I owe it a lot for a lot of great things I have in my life because I had the opportunity to go to Vanderbilt. But I also knew that if we were successful, when we were successful there, then it would lead to other opportunities for James, and Penn State just happened to be the one that he decided on and I never questioned it for a second. I knew as soon as he announced that he was going to Penn State, I knew we were going to Penn State. There was no hesitation, between myself, my family and my wife. You know, we knew right away that we were going to State College. My wife and I lived in Nashville for 15 years before we moved up to State College. So Nashville is very, very close and very dear to our hearts, as is Vanderbilt, but there was never a second hesitation. We knew exactly where we were going once he announced it.”
As Franklin and these seven staffers enter an eighth year at Penn State, it is natural to wonder what goes into the decision to stay put in a profession that sees so much change. Of course, not everyone that came to Penn State with Franklin still calls the Lasch Building home, nor did everyone leave happy. Former offensive coordinator John Donovan has long since departed while Franklin protege Ricky Rahne awaits his first season at the helm of an Old Dominion program waiting to play its first game after a year off due to COVID-19. Other operational and behind-the-scenes carryovers from the Vanderbilt era have departed as well. But as the Lasch Building undergoes renovations and the Nittany Lions continue to go through new coordinators and coaches, it’s worth asking what has kept these seven at Penn State, and what it might take for them to one day finally leave.
GALT: Being a part of this is phenomenal. I’ve kind of died and gone to heaven. I really do sincerely feel that I have the best strength job in college football. I really do feel that. I’ve just been so blessed. But you know, I have a family. I’ve got nine grandkids and four children and an unbelievable wife puts up with me. Physically I feel good. I love working here, but there’s the family consideration. At some point you just you just wonder, at my age do I want to spend this many hours being away from from my grandkids? So that’s really the only consideration. Besides that I’m signed up and ready to roll.
PRY: I think it’s not hard for me to remind myself how fortunate I am. When you recognize that and you live that every day, you find yourself turning down opportunities that you never thought you would, just because of the situation you’re in and how good it is. I’m making more money than I ever dreamed I’d make in a lifetime coaching football. And so it’s not about the money. It’s about the relationships. It’s about the opportunity to win a national championship. It’s about a head coach that’s going to surround me with like-minded people, and recruit like-minded players. The things that are important to him are important to me. It makes it a little more black and white, and you take a phone call, and you just just find yourself coming off the phone saying, “I’m sorry, I’m not interested.” It’s about my family and being happy and quality of life and aligning myself with the right people. And I have that here.
So we’re not in a hurry. I tell young coaches all the time, you shouldn’t really feel like you should take a job because you need to or you have to when you’re in a good job and in a good place. You can be very selective and that’s kind of where my wife and I are at, at this time. So I’m not going to say never but I think when the time is right and the situation’s right, I know I’d have James’s support.
THRELKEL: I think it’s just loyalty. Coach Franklin was able to bring so many people from Vanderbilt where, you know, that’s not always the case sometimes and I was fortunate to be asked to come and was excited for another opportunity and excited to come to Penn State. We were fired up to come here and start our time here.
FRANK: As far as why I’ve stayed — I’m probably speaking for a lot of people in this — is that Coach surrounded himself with a lot of really good people. So that aspect of things is fun, to be part of an organization where there’s other good people who are all kind of pulling the rope in the same direction and trying to win at the highest level, but also do it the right way in terms of following the rules, but also educating the players and helping them grow. And I think that’s something that you don’t know if you’re going somewhere else, if you’re going to get that as your culture or not.
GANT: I’ve been offered, you know, every year, but I’m never gonna let it get to Coach Franklin because it’s irrelevant. I think the thing that stands out to me the most is the fact that Coach Franklin really cares about the players and life after football. It’s real to him. So being that genuine person, that allows me to also trust him with my family and my family’s future and all those things. I know the type of person he is. I believe in him being a family man and a family man within this building as well. So all of those things have kind of led me to stay when there are opportunities to go other places. It would be taking an undue chance when everything’s so good here.
LOSEY: James is as advertised. He prides himself on being a relationship-based coach, and he’s like that with the players; he’s like that with the staff. It is a profession where people bounce around a lot and I think sometimes people make the assumption in this profession that loyalty doesn’t exist anymore. I would highly disagree with that. I know personally, I’m loyal to James Franklin; I’m loyal to Dwight Galt… As a young head strength coach, I thought I had a lot of things figured out, and I did, but there was still a lot more to learn, especially from a guy like Dwight who had been in the profession for going on at that time 25, 30 years. So it was just kind of like the stars aligned.
That’s kind of why I’ve stayed with James; it’s just that I have the utmost confidence in him. I have the utmost confidence in Dwight. I wouldn’t change our situation. Our families are close. Our wives hang out together. I know their kids very well. They know my kids very well, so it’s, you just don’t find that often in this profession, and I’m not interested in giving that up any time soon. Not for a quick payday. You know, I tell people all the time my associate director position here at Penn State is better than 95% of the director positions out there.
HAZEL: My title is director of football operations, but it’s probably not exactly fitting in terms of when you think traditional sense of what operations folks do. I do a lot of different, different things for James and involve a lot of different ways. I’m a very curious guy, and the types of projects and tasks that I’m involved with keeps me super engaged and super interested. And I think we’re both motivated to chase two things: to chase the development of people [players and staff] and also the chase a championship, and I feel like we can achieve that at Penn State. So that is something that’s always in the back of my mind and always motivates me when I wake up in the morning, to know that we had the opportunity to make a difference in young people’s lives. We also have an opportunity to chase a national championship. So, those are all reasons why I have been with him for a while.
A football building is large, but it’s also very small. For all the square feet inside the Lasch Building the long hours can turn its expansive hallways into a pressure cooker, and when the pressure is high the relationships have to be strong. If they aren’t, the walls crack, and all sorts of things can come pouring out. Any relationship will have its good and its bad, but after 10+ years in the same football foxhole, you wouldn’t be sticking around to fend off incoming attacks if you don’t like the people to your left and your right.
PRY: Obviously, our roots and the people that are important and instrumental early in his career are the same people that are instrumental and important to me. Just guys that really are near and dear to both of us. And then the second piece, just the relationship with my family. James played for my dad [at East Stroudsburg, where Jim Pry was offensive coordinator]. And so it’s not just me. It’s my father; it’s my mother; it’s my brothers. When he comes around the corner and says, “Hey, how’s dad doing?” You know, I love that. I love that he knows my family like he does. I really believe he loves and cares for my wife and my children. The family environment, the trust I have, is so important.
And then we both were at [small schools] and just had to climb and work and scrape and we slept on hotel floors at conventions and recruited on money out of our own pocket and all those things that so many lower level coaches go through. That’s the road we traveled. And there’s a bond there that’s not just with James but with everybody that maybe didn’t get that break and they’re still coaching because they love the game. I was 40 years old and still doing a lot of that stuff. And in a lot of ways it was like that for James. So it was just a couple of different ways that have been significant in our past and have kind of aligned us with one another and created this bond.
GALT: I don’t want to speak for Coach Franklin, but I think that there’s certainly mutual admiration and respect there. The one word I think that may characterize our relationship is trust. I trust him, emphatically, in every area of my life. I sincerely know that he has my best interest and he cares extremely deeply. And I think he feels the same way about me. I mean, it’s just trust. And the irony of the thing is that, you know with our relationship we’ve probably had as much confrontation and disagreements, coming from the right place. We both are trying to do what we feel is best for the program, and ultimately — obviously — he’s the boss and I lose a lot of the conversations that we have [laughs]. He’s got no agendas, man. It’s 100% whatever he thinks is best for the program.
GANT: [Did you think you would be at Penn State this long?] Absolutely not [laughs]. I have the three years at Vanderbilt. I figured out you know, I’ll pay my dues one or two more years and then I’m either off to the NFL or I’m off to be a head strength coach. And the strength coach part at some smaller schools popped up but nothing that was better than what I was already doing. So I know I didn’t actually see myself here for 10 years, but the longer we’re here the more of a blessing we kind of realized that it is to be at Penn State in State College under Coach Franklin. I tell everyone, all the recruits as they come in, and their parents, especially in 2021, this is a great place to be for our family and to have a university that has invested in their football program the way that Penn State has. There is no better place to be in 2021 and going forward, until that big head job calls or that NFL job calls, then this is where I’ll be.
FRANKLIN: Having people that you care about, and they care about you, both in terms of professional and personal matters [is huge]. That you can go talk to about anything like highly, highly personal issues or sensitive professional issues that you can go talk and you’re gonna value their opinion, because you don’t have to spend an hour explaining the background to everything.
So it’s just valuable to be able to go to [Galt] and get his perspective, whether I agree with it completely or not it’s good to hear. And sometimes it’ll impact me in the moment. Sometimes I’m unsure. I sleep on it and 24 hours later I’m like, okay, that makes sense. I get it now. The same way with Brent, we’ve been together long for a long time. And those guys can push me when I need to be pushed, but also when I make a decision that maybe the majority of the room doesn’t understand, they usually do. So when we break the meeting and leave, they’re going back and reinforcing it. There’s tremendous value, they’re the probably the two guys as well as Kevin and Hazel, depending on the topic we’re talking about but those are the guys that I can go run things by because I try not to make decisions in a vacuum. That’s where you make mistakes just hiring a bunch of people that look like you and think like you. If you’re not careful you come stale over time. [New and/or different people] bring in fresh ideas, which is I think a little bit of a strength and a weakness of this place.
And of course there are the stories. You don’t spend half your career with a group of people and not come away with a story or two. Do they all get shared with the rest of the world? Maybe not. Football and sports are great for the kind of bond that keeps things within a circle of trust. But that doesn’t mean every story is a secret.
PRY: I’ll never forget when we’re at Vanderbilt, it’s like our first official visit weekend. And everybody is kind of on eggshells and navigating it. And it’s in the afternoon on Saturday, and he pulls everybody in the stairwell and just chews our butts and says, “There is no energy. We won’t get one of these guys. We’ve got to be all over this. We got to put smiles on, we got to…” I mean he just lit into us [laughs]. So we came out of the stairwell freakin storming the fort, man, attacking these recruits and their families. And that really was the standard, that was the eye opener. This is how we’re going to roll. This is how we’re going to beat people on these kids and these families and it’s going to be all about us. The facilities don’t look the same? Let’s get this personality going. That’s why I hired you.
THRELKEL: I think one time at a staff retreat, we’re at a lake and we run into a couple boats and then all of a sudden saw some cliff jumping and, you know, one thing leads to another next thing we’re jumping from like, I don’t know, it seemed like a 30-40 foot cliff. It was just those kind of memories where you’re joking around and egging each other on and all of a sudden we’re up there, jumping off a cliff. There’s just tons of those good times that we’ve had here and all the years in between.
