Town&Gown founder Mimi Barash Coppersmith recently sat down via Zoom for an interview with former Penn State president Graham Spanier. A decade since the indictment of former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky for child sexual abuse, Spanier discusses what he says were false narratives surrounding his role in the Sandusky scandal.
Throughout his 10-year legal battle, Spanier rejected numerous plea bargains and maintained that he and other administrators were not aware of the details described in the court documents relating to an incident in the locker room involving Sandusky and a boy in 2001. Spanier says that if they had become aware of anything resembling child abuse, sexual abuse, or criminal behavior, he and other administrators would have sprung into action.
Spanier was released from the Centre County jail in August 2021 after completing 58 days of a 60-day sentence for his conviction on a misdemeanor child endangerment charge in connection with the Sandusky case. He describes his incarceration as a horrible but educational experience that has motivated him to advocate for reform in the corrections system to provide more rehabilitation and mental health services.
Spanier was the 16th president of Penn State, serving from 1995 until November 9, 2011, when he stepped down. His prior positions include chancellor of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, provost and vice president for academic affairs at Oregon State University, and vice provost for undergraduate studies at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. He also previously served Penn State from 1973-1982 as a faculty member and in three administrative positions in the College of Health and Human Development. He held academic appointments as professor of human development and family studies, sociology, demography, and family and community medicine.
Born in South Africa, Spanier grew up in Chicago. He earned a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree in sociology from Iowa State University. He then attended Northwestern University, where he was a Woodrow Wilson Fellow, and earned his PhD in sociology in 1973.
During his presidency at Penn State, Spanier is credited with leading the creation of the Penn State World Campus, the Schreyer Honors College, the College of Information Sciences and Technology, the School of International Affairs, and programs in forensic sciences and security and risk analysis. He also oversaw the merger with the Dickenson School of Law.
Mimi: Let’s flash back to that historic moment 10 years ago, in early November, when you went from the top of the mountain as president of Penn State, down to a low valley very quickly, almost overnight. How did you deal with that?
Graham: Well, it was a devastating experience for me, the university, and the community. I’m not sure, personally, that I coped with it well at first, because even though I have a background as a marriage and family therapist and have helped people who were depressed, I didn’t really realize until months later how devastating the experience was for me. I probably had experienced some post-traumatic stress from it all. It required me to muster all of the energy and resilience that I could to get through that episode. But I’ve tried to hold my head high and deal with it as well as I can. And I’ve devoted a lot of my time over the last decade to helping other people cope with the trauma of that era; many, many in the university and community had difficulty with it.
Mimi: Do you think you should have done things differently? Do you have any regrets?
Graham: Well, you can always look back and think about how things might have been handled differently as that was evolving. The Board of Trustees had made it clear that they wanted to oversee the evolving crisis, and they muted me. I was deeply shocked and concerned about the allegations of child abuse, and in retrospect, I really wish I could have done what I did in all other crises facing the university over my career, which is to tackle them head on, and to speak openly and publicly. I wasn’t able to do that. And I wish that I could have.
Mimi: You’ve said there was a false narrative around the Sandusky case and that you and other university administrators did not know of child abuse or sexual abuse at that time. What was your understanding of what Mike McQueary (then a Penn State football graduate assistant) said he had witnessed (between Sandusky and a boy in the locker room in 2001)?
Graham: Well, if you go back to 2001 or late 2000, I never knew then that Mike McQueary was the member of the athletic department staff who was being referenced when I heard a brief report about an unnamed staff member witnessing horseplay. I only learned from a news story on Monday night, November 7, 2011, that Mike McQueary was that person. There was nothing in the initial report I heard about anything abusive or sexual. I wasn’t told which facility it was, or the time of the day, or anything about the circumstances other than that a member of the athletic department staff was uncomfortable when he saw, indirectly and around the corner, that Jerry Sandusky was “horsing around” with a youth in a locker room facility. That was about all I heard in a 10-minute conversation.
Had I been told anything more than that or suspected child abuse or sexual abuse, of course I would have sprung into action much more aggressively. As a victim myself of child abuse, I have always been very sensitive to such issues, and I would have been greatly disturbed had I ever heard anything along those lines.
Mimi: You were offered plea bargains numerous times, and you rejected them. Could you tell us why you did that?
Graham: Well, I believe you always have to stand for truthfulness, honesty, and integrity. And I would never plead guilty to something I’m not guilty of. Every time a plea bargain was offered, I told my lawyers that I would rather serve time in prison for a crime I did not commit than to say that I’m guilty of something that I’m not guilty of. It just was totally outside of my value system to accept a plea bargain. People do that all the time, and the justice system is centered around the concept of prosecutors throwing the book at somebody and then agreeing to some lesser infraction just so they can have a victory. But there have been some great injustices done to many people as a part of this entire episode, I regret to say.
Mimi: But yet you have managed to sit up straight, screw your head on, and be a part of all that you can be a part of in this community. Where did that stamina come from in your life?
Graham: I’ve told people that you could take me out of Penn State, but you can’t take Penn State out of me. I remain very committed to the university. I have raised tens of millions of dollars on behalf of the university over the last decade. I have visited with dozens of donors, at their invitation and at my own expense, to encourage them to continue to support the university. Even if they were unhappy with some people on the board or the administration, I urged them not to take that out on our students.
Where did all of that come from? Well, I grew up in a poor family that immigrated to the United States when I was a child. Many in my family were lost in the Holocaust. I’m the first person in my family to have ever set foot on a college campus. I suppose this all helped build resilience and a work ethic, and it’s taught me to always try to do the right thing. I think I’ve always tried very hard to do that.
Mimi: After a long legal fight, you had to serve about two months in jail. And that was just this past summer. How did you deal with that experience?
Graham: It really helps to have friends and supporters who believe in you. And that’s been a big part of this. If I ever felt depressed, I could just go to the grocery store, and it felt like a receiving line. The support from the community, colleagues, and people who have worked with me over the years, faculty members, staff, has been absolutely wonderful. That has helped a lot.
I can tell you that being incarcerated was a horrible, horrible experience. But it was also very educational. I am already working with various entities on reform of the judicial and incarceration system. I am writing about it and will do my best, now having some firsthand experience, to see if I can help promote some changes that will make it all work better.
Mimi: It’s time that the way that those things are managed and conducted is exposed and corrected, to respect humanity.
Graham: We have correctional facilities where it turns out there’s very little correction going on inside. Many of the people in there are not getting the help they need. They need rehabilitation; they need help for substance abuse; they need educational services; and they need jobs. I got to know 30 or so people very, very well, speaking with prisoners for hours on end about their lives, how they got there, and what they want out of life going forward. There are a lot of decent people who end up incarcerated. They all understand why they’re there. They know how they want their lives to change, but they’re not necessarily getting the help that they need to make those changes.
Mimi: What suggestions have you made?
Graham: I think we need to see an improvement in medical services. Many of the inmates need medical care, and they need mental health services. We need more of a mental health orientation rather than a punishment orientation. There aren’t nearly enough rehabilitation facilities and services for substance abuse.
Mimi: Are you going to lead that parade?
Graham: I’m meeting with some folks who may have the ability to foster some changes. I hope by writing about it, I can raise awareness. It turns out that my own attorney (Samuel W. Silver) is the chairman of the board of the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, and he and I have been talking about people who are unfairly or inappropriately incarcerated. I don’t want to overstate the issue, because the correctional facility in Centre County is one of the models statewide. They do a very good job, and we have an excellent warden there. But nationally, the statistics are eye-opening.
Mimi: So, you have a new vision going forward.
Graham: I do. That’s one part of what I would like to devote some energies to. But I will continue to write and to advise colleagues in higher education. I continue to meet with many students who want my advice about one matter or another.
I’m working on a number of projects in the community. One of them is a project for the Centre County Historical Society focused on the legacy of Town&Gown magazine. It has been a remarkable experience for me to read every story in every issue since the magazine was first published in 1966 and to create a database so that people can research and have access to the marvelous history of this county and of this university. A major part of that legacy is you, Mimi.
I’m also trying to help Centre Volunteers in Medicine with their fundraising activities. They provide phenomenal support for uninsured and underinsured people who need medical, dental, and mental health services. I will continue to be an active and helpful citizen in the community and within the university.
Mimi: With everything that has happened, are you in touch with (former vice president) Gary Shultz or (former athletic director) Tim Curley? How has it affected your relationship with them?
Graham: I am in touch with both of them. At first, all of our lawyers said that we shouldn’t spend time together or communicate with each other. That’s the lawyers talking, and we followed our lawyers’ orders. But in recent years, we have stayed in touch regularly; we see each other often. We support each other as well as we can. This has been very hard for Tim and Gary. They are two of the finest people I’ve ever worked with; neither of them deserved what happened to them. It’s been very difficult for all of us, but I feel a special kinship with them for all they have been through.
Mimi: And their families, too.
Graham: Yes, of course, their families. When this happened in late 2011, people focused on Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz, and Tim Curley. But the fact is that we all have families, that there were dozens of other people at the university who lost their jobs because of their association with one or more of us. A lot of changes were forced through intercollegiate athletics. You start to multiply the people who were involved who needed to retire or who left or were pushed out, and then you extend that to their families and those close to them. It’s dozens, scores of people who were affected by this crisis. And I have to say it didn’t feel fair to a lot of people. I really hope that everyone will recover from it and that the community and the university will, in due course, recover as well.
Mimi: How do you see your legacy as Penn State president? In many ways, you transformed the university. What are some of your proudest achievements? Do you fear they’ll always be overshadowed?
Graham: Well, thank you for speaking so positively about my tenure. I loved my job in every respect. I miss it. And I’m very proud of what we accomplished. My name is on the diploma of about 300,000 graduates. I’m proud of that. I’m proud of what we did to enhance the academic programs of the university. I think we built a student-centered university. One of the themes of my [presidency] was to focus on character, conscience, citizenship, and social responsibility. And we put a number of programs in place around those themes.
In my inaugural State of the University address, I said I wanted Penn State to be the leading university in the country in the integration of teaching, research, and service. And we had a number of initiatives around those themes. We built somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 new buildings – about two-thirds of them on the University Park campus, others on our commonwealth campuses – and created millions of square feet of new space. I paid particular attention to the ambiance and the architecture of our campuses. One of the things I’m proudest of is the award from the American Institute of Architects for outstanding contribution to architecture by a non-architect.
I think there’s a lot that we can look back on and be proud of: the increase in our research funding, the $3.5 billion of philanthropic support that was raised during my administration. So, I can look back very proudly at what happened. Over time, I would hope and expect that it would not be overshadowed. But I don’t write the history; others will, of course.
Mimi: How have you kept busy professionally over the past decade?
Graham: I’ve stayed very busy every day. And that’s been important to me because when you’ve been a professor and administrator for 50 years, you want to still feel relevant. I do a lot of mentoring of other university presidents, vice presidents, deans, students. I say yes to just about everything I’m asked to do. I continue to write. I recently completed a consulting project with another university, helping them to reorganize their research enterprise. And there have been some hours – too many hours – that have been taken up talking to lawyers.
But I must say that the best part of my life right now, and in the last few years, is grandchildren. Becoming a grandparent has been wonderful for me. And it came at the right time. It’s kind of a good thing that my children waited until after I wasn’t a university president anymore. Because when you have 100-hour work weeks, it would be harder to squeeze out the hours for your grandchildren. But now I can do that more, and I love it.
Mimi: You have done a few interviews lately. Why have you decided to tell your story now?
Graham: I’ve felt from the beginning that telling the truth is essential. Getting the real story out is important. And in the beginning, I was held back by attorneys and even by the attorney general and prosecutors from being open and candid. Any time I tried to tell the truth, they would subpoena my interviews and put journalists in a difficult position. But now that this is behind me, there is still, 10 years later, intense interest in people wanting to hear the whole story. I have not been bashful about doing interviews, and I will not be bashful about doing interviews going forward. I remember that within days or weeks of the time when I stepped down from my presidency, you asked me to do a Town&Gown interview, and I couldn’t then; I wanted to, but I couldn’t. And I’m so happy that we’re able to do it now.
Mimi: I’m so appreciative that you’ve allowed me to do this. Thank you, Graham, for your candor. Graham: Thank you, Mimi. It’s been a pleasure.
